Posts by defender of truth

91

ABC's report on child abuse

by Joyzabel in

nice job!

defender of truth

http://abc.go.com/shows/nightline/listing/2015-03/12-nightline-031215-former-jehovahs-witness-takes-on-church-over-sex-abuse-allegations

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

Whenindoubt, I hope you respond to my post, those examples should prove that predation and suffering predated 'sin'.

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

Whenindoubt said:
"Whether man sins against man,
or the animal kingdom against each other, or man against animal,
vegetation, water, earth, or air, is an inherited trait by sin. Therefore sin continues..."

You seem to keep saying that animal suffering
(specifically that of animals harming and killing each other in various ways)
only happens because the world and all those living on it are either 'sinful', or affected by Sin.

If 'sin' is the answer, then why does evidence exist that animals hurt and killed each other millions of years ago, long before mankind supposedly brought sin into the world?
Here are two examples for you, but then you'll have to do your own research:

"Entelodonts lived in the forests and plains where they were the apex predatorsof North America's early Miocene and Oligocene, consuming carrion and live animals and rounding off their diets with plants and tubers.

They would have hunted large animals, like the cow-sized artiodactyl Eporeodon major, and the sheep-sized cameloid Poebrotherium wilsoni, dispatching them with a bite from their jaws.
Some fossil remains of these other animals have been found with the bite marks of entelodonts on them."
"Entelodonts, sometimes nicknamed hell pigs or terminator pigs, are an extinct family of pig-like omnivores endemic to forests and plains of North America, Europe, and Asia from the late Eoceneto early Miocene epochs (37.2—16.3 million years ago)"
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entelodont

"Scientists working on fossils from Kangaroo Island, South Australia, have found eyes belonging to a giant 500 million-year-old marine predator that sat at the top of the earth's first food chain...
It is considered to be at the top of the earliest food chains because of its large body size, formidable grasping claws at the front of its head and a circular mouth with razor-sharp serrations.
Supporting evidence of this predator's dominance includes damage to contemporaneous trilobites, and even its fossilised poo (or coprolites) containing the remains of its prey...
The existence of highly sophisticated, visual hunters within Cambrian communities would have accelerated the predator-prey 'arms race' that began during this important phase in early animal evolution over half a billion years ago."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/12/111207132908.htm

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

[These will be the right posts. I,m sorry, Simon.]

"any sovereign ruler or government entity can define what is good and what is bad, not you.
The definition of good or bad can mean that he can drop a nuclear bomb destroying animals and people and whatever he wants."

Fisherman...
Your reply to the issue of how a loving God can allow animal suffering is that
'God can kill or cause suffering to anyone he wants to, including innocent animals,
therefore he is right to do so.' ?

Apparently, to Fisherman and so many other believers..
Might = Right.

Strangely enough, most believers in the Biblical God would usually disagree with that philosophy
(think of Hitler and his views of what was 'good' and 'bad'),
except for when their concept of a 'just and loving' personal God is being questioned.

'But God can kill any people or creatures that he wants to, because he is God.
Whatever he does is right, and he has the right to do it because he has the authority!' is what believers (those who defend the concept of a loving God) essentially say.

Matt Dillahunty responds to that argument much better than I could..
(Please watch this, it's only 8 minutes)

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ecYTgCrVhGM

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

defender of truth

The best defense that believers in a god that cares seem able to come up with is basically - animals suffer as a kind of collateral damage.

Simple question: Is collateral damage ever just? Or is it always injust, and avoided when possible?

With God, all things are possible?.. Apparently not if he can't avoid collateral damage.

76

WT loses appeal in UK!!!!!!!

by Viva la Vida in

the wt lost its appeals regarding the charity commission inquiry.

here is the ruling:.

http://www.charity.tribunals.gov.uk/documents/decisions/watch-tower-ruling-03mar15.pdf.

defender of truth

Thankyou again Simon.

I've emailed Private Eye, no response from BBC yet. The story is covered again here:
Lawandreligionuk article

9

Child Abuse Trials

by Garrett in

i'm currently working something up to share with a few people.

i was wondering if anyone knew the current number (estimation) of child abuse cases that are going on (that we know about)?

i don't get much time to be on here right now but it seems that cases are sprouting everywhere.

defender of truth

Look at the scan on this page, 27 in the UK..

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/147460003/more-child-abuse-issues-todays-sunday-times

76

WT loses appeal in UK!!!!!!!

by Viva la Vida in

the wt lost its appeals regarding the charity commission inquiry.

here is the ruling:.

http://www.charity.tribunals.gov.uk/documents/decisions/watch-tower-ruling-03mar15.pdf.

defender of truth

This is a landmark case involving a group that is gaining public interest (as well as that of the Charity Commission), due to their lack of proper child protection policies.
It will be worth keeping an eye on, or possibly even sending a reporter.
(more cases are yet to come if you read the full article) :

"A WOMAN who was abused from the age of four by a senior officer of the Jehovah’s Witnesses has lodged a £500,000 claim for compensation in a test case that could open the door to hundreds more suits involving members of the religious organisation in the UK.

Judges sitting at the High Court in London have been told that Abigail (not her real name) was first molested after Bible-study classes in Leicestershire by Peter Stewart, a ministerial servant of the organisation.

The abuse, which included alleged rape, continued for five years until Abigail was nine, and took place in her home, his home, in a shed and in cars, the court was told.."

Link
..................

The Charity Commission is investigating them as a matter of public interest related to the safeguarding of children:
"The regulator opened a case into the charity in July 2013 to examine concerns about the trustees’ approach to dealing with safeguarding matters and discuss the scope of the trustees’ duties and responsibilities under charity law in connection with safeguarding issues...
The inquiry is about the regulator assuring itself about the policy, procedures and practices in light of recent events.

The Commission’s duty to protect public trust in charity has prompted it to open a formal inquiry to investigate these concerns.

The Commission’s concerns have been amplified by recent criminal cases concerning historic incidents of abuse involving individuals who appear to have been connected to Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations and/or the charity.

In addition, there has been growing public interest in how the charity and congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses deal with safeguarding matters."

Link
...........

The Watchtower chose not to even respond to the courts production order (they were ordered to produce relevant child protection policy documents) for six months which, as the judge stated, meant that the safety of children could still be at risk.

"At a tribunal last week, judge Alison McKenna said the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain had caused prolonged delays to the regulator’s investigation leading to “ongoing risks” to children.

"The Charity Commission initially opened an inquiry into the charity in May 2014 to investigate if adequate safeguarding procedures were in place, following revelations that trustees of the charity had allowed a convicted paedophile to question his victims."

"Jonathan Rose, an elder of the New Moston congregation, was jailed for nine months for abusing two women when they were young girls, the Manchester Evening News reported.
According to the paper, after his release in March 2014, a series of “disfellowship” meetings were held to decide whether Rose should remain a member of the organisation, and the women were asked to recount their ordeal. At one meeting, Rose was allowed to ask the women questions."

"The regulator said at the time that it has had “ongoing serious concerns” about the charity and had previously opened regulatory compliance cases into the Watch Tower Bible in July 2013 and the New Moston congregation in December 2013...

McKenna said the charity’s delay of “over six months” in making the extension application to the tribunal “elongated unreasonably the period of time” in which the Commission would be “delayed from carrying out its inquiry pending determination of a challenge to its decision”.

“I give weight to the fact that the [Commission’s] inquiry and production order relate to safeguarding matters which could… logically concern on-going risks to people who are still children”, she said.

McKenna said: “it seems to me that the continuation of the court proceedings was [the charity’s] main priority at that time… I also conclude that there was not a good explanation for it...”

Link
.............
The 10/14 Elders letter: ('Elders' are the men who lead and supervise all congregation activities.)

Only if the brothers at the branch office determine that someone is a “predator” can parents in the local congregation be warned of his tendencies. Only if the branch office decides that someone is a “known child molester” can he be blocked from ever serving as an elder.

Please read it when you have time.(It's now in the public domain)

Link

76